Laserbrain Studios

Games Forum Blog Contact

Author Topic: Fleet tactics  (Read 26432 times)

Lexus

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 541
    • View Profile
    • http://abandonedbutnotforgotten.wordpress.com/
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2010, 09:56:01 PM »
revenge of the kilrathi fleet...  :eeeee:

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2010, 10:17:32 PM »
Quote from: "Lexus"
revenge of the kilrathi fleet...  :eeeee:


"Kilrah strikes back"... no, wait! This planet was destroyed in 2669. Bad luck. ;)

Back to serious bussiness.
If a fleet will survive an attack (our or from other fleet) will it be able to "call for reinforcement"? I mean if capital ships will survive then fleets could be able to take new ships (fighters/bombers) to their ranks. Of course, it should take some time to fully restore fleet and could depend on how many system they control.

If fleet's capship will be destroyed then remain fighters/bombers could regroup with other fleet (from the same faction).
Genuine Lifelike Individual

Bugamn

  • Experienced
  • *****
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2010, 06:33:18 AM »
Quote from: "VincentFirePony"
Quote from: "GLI"
In P:AS I'm legal privateer because I'm hunting Pirates, Retros and Kilrathies only.


"TECHNICALLY" :eeeee: you're self proclaimed Privateer. I kinda hope CK implements Base Governors and Letters of Marque I spoke of in another thread today. Then we could get some REAL Privateering on! Lol

Are we making Christian Knuden's Privateer?
It came from ... behind.

Lexus

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 541
    • View Profile
    • http://abandonedbutnotforgotten.wordpress.com/
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2010, 08:34:50 PM »
The Privateer 2.0  :hehe:

sudo

  • Experienced
  • *****
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2010, 09:43:09 PM »
Quote from: "VincentFirePony"
Quote from: "GLI"
In P:AS I'm legal privateer because I'm hunting Pirates, Retros and Kilrathies only.


"TECHNICALLY" :eeeee: you're self proclaimed Privateer. I kinda hope CK implements Base Governors and Letters of Marque I spoke of in another thread today. Then we could get some REAL Privateering on! Lol


I am taking over the sector so I am my own privateer!   8)

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2010, 09:29:15 PM »
[Previously on Development Updates]

Quote from: "Christian Knudsen"
Fleets are made up of a hierarchy of ships, with the first ship not escorting anybody, but carrying out the fleet's order, and then every other ship in the fleet escorting/following either the first ship or one of the other escorting ships. The problem was that if one of the leading ships (a ship that has escortees) was destroyed, the escorting ships would no longer follow the fleet's order as their "link" to the first ship was destroyed. So I had to make it so that another ship would take the place of the destroyed ship and give the escorting ships a new ship to follow.


I'm thinking how to bite hostile fleet... and to protect MY future fleet.

A -> flag ship
B+B+B+B -> "close" escort of flag ship (Alfa wing)
C -> first capital ship from escort of A
D+D+D+D+F+F+F+F -> "close" escort of first capital ship (Beta and Delta wings)
G -> second capital ship from escort of A
H+H+H+H+I+I+I+I -> "close" escort of second capital ship (Gamma and Epsilon wings)

This is "Fleet Task Group" (FTG). OK, fleet will not attack if not provoked by player but they should have some tactics not just "blood-lust/kill'em-all" like right now when attacked.

What will happen right now if any ship will be attacked by player? Everybody will attack him/her. One lone ship against whole fleet will have some big problem to destroy them all. Should all ships from the fleet break formation and attack one opponent? Slower capital ship will be left behind. What if it will be part of some ambush (e.g. player's mission from fixer)? If/when escort will be in hunt for that one opponent (player's character) then other fleet (or bunch of mercenaries) could make "quick approach" and destroy slower capital ships.

I wonder how could they react IF they will be assigned to "wings" (groups from OP)? E.g. 8 ships is 1 squadron which has two wings (Alfa, Beta). If attacked by small force (like player's single ship) only one wing should attack hostile ship (with optional medium range pursuit) and second wing should only defend in close range (fire to hostile if escortee will be hit but without chase).

What if ship from "F" wing will be attacked by player? Ships from this wing should attack such hostile but "C" with "D" escort wing are flying their way... until "F" will have some problem with elimination of a threat (to much time or some ships will be destroyed). Then sub-fleet ("C" + "D" + rest of "F") should together attack dangerous opponent. I think that sometimes (when player has capital ship like Pegasus or Nexus) whole sub-fleet could react a little faster (for bigger threat).

While sub-fleet C-D-F will be engaged in combat then A-B and G-H-I could fly slower, wait for sub-fleet or even stay close (more ships in small area means e.g. difficult maneuvers for attacker). In case when sub-fleet will be in danger (one wing destroyed +1) then another sub-fleet (G-H-I) could help. Well, they could react faster launching missiles from long range or even torpedoes. Otherwise it could look like "wolf ate sheep one by one while shepherd's dog was asleep"...
Genuine Lifelike Individual

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2010, 01:12:42 PM »
Another idea for tactics.

If fleet will be attacked by smaller forces (e.g. player) then FTG could try to surround them:

Code: [Select]


          B
        /   \
      /   P   \
    A - - - - - C



A -> main fleet's capship
B, C -> sub-fleet's capships
P -> attacker (e.g. player)

Like I suggested in previous post when one ship from fleet will be attacked then they should act properly (tactics: wing -> squadron/sub-fleet -> two sub-fleets -> fleet). If one sub-fleet will be engaged in combat other two (rest of FTG) could react properly to support fighting party. In above diagram I tried to show what I mean by "surround enemy":
1) P is attacking sub-fleet B,
2) other two sub-fleets are trying to get closer from both sides to make some kind of triangle,
3) when close A+C are trying to get even closer to limit P's movement,
4) when A+C will be close enough then they could use missiles/torpedoes or even send one or two wings of fighters/bombers.
It'll be hard to break out from such trap...

OK, but what to do if attackers are equal (e.g. hostile fleet)? I propose:
1) some kind of "flanking maneuver",


Code: [Select]

1st stage

        E-N-M

           ^
           |

        B-A-C


2nd stage

        E-N-M

           ^
           |
   
    B - - - - - C
      \       /
        \   /
          A

3rd stage
   
    B   E-N-M   C
      \        /
          A



2) break enemy line to split them (like during Battle of Trafalgar)

Code: [Select]

1st stage

         E-N-M

           ^
           |

        B-A-C

2nd stage

         E-N-M
         
          ^
          |
          A
        /  \
      B - - C

3rd stage

        A
     B E  N M
        C

4th stage like for "flanking maneuver"

        A
      B  N M
        C



But what to do if opponent will be stronger (e.g. two joined fleets)? Hmm, maybe some "evasive maneuvers"? Retreat to vicinity of asteroid field for some "tactics advantage"? Call for back-up (one or two additional wings)?

Quote from: "Cthulhu"

It would be cool if the fleets had different tactics. I remember reading about the tactics of ancient Greece (Sparta?) where the commander lined up his soldiers as:

Code: [Select]

   Enemy Line
-------------------
       
-----\      /------
      \----/
  Greek Soldiers


so when he moved north (up) the enemy would get trapped in the middle, and the flanks would fold around the enemy, thereby trapping them completely.  (I wonder if something as advanced as this is programmable?)
I cant remember the name of the commander or the name of the battle, but it's famous.


I don't remember it too but I think it could be Scipio Africanus (Roman). I found some nice site about Roman Empire. There are descriptions of many Roman battles with some nice pictures of "tactics" (e.g. Battle of Ilipa).

EDIT: Many years ago I played Centurion: Defender of Rome (at Abandonia). There was some tactics to use but back then I didn't know what is it for... :D
Genuine Lifelike Individual

Cthulhu

  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2010, 01:26:52 PM »
Quote from: "GLI"
Code: [Select]
         B
        /   \
      /   P   \
    A - - - - - C

Looks like there could be some serious friendly blue-on-blue fire there, unless the AI get updated, or the base of the triangle is relatively large.

Anyways, looks like some serious coding needs to be done to implement this, I guess.

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2010, 01:31:04 PM »
Quote from: "Cthulhu"
Quote from: "GLI"
Code: [Select]
         B
        /   \
      /   P   \
    A - - - - - C

Looks like there could be some serious friendly blue-on-blue fire there, unless the AI get updated, or the base of the triangle is relatively large.

Anyways, looks like some serious coding needs to be done to implement this, I guess.


If/When "Targeting Computers" will be available then "friendly fire" shouldn't be a problem. I assume that Fleets will have "maxed" ships (e.g. fighters like these from bounty missions).
Genuine Lifelike Individual

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2010, 01:59:43 PM »
Quote

A -> flag ship
B+B+B+B -> "close" escort of flag ship (Alfa wing)
C -> first capital ship from escort of A
D+D+D+D+F+F+F+F -> "close" escort of first capital ship (Beta and Delta wings)
G -> second capital ship from escort of A
H+H+H+H+I+I+I+I -> "close" escort of second capital ship (Gamma and Epsilon wings)


I wonder how could look "perfect" Confed fleet. Let's imagine that:

A => Paradigm
B => Broadsword
C => Nexus
D => Broadsword
F => Gladius
E => ... I forgot about "E", yhyhy!
G => Pegasus
H => Gladius
I => Stiletto

A-B-C are core of a fleet (commands usually and attacks larger capital ships)
C-D-F are defenders of a fleet (don't chase usually but launch a lot of missiles/torpedoes)
G-H-I are attackers of a fleet (first to attack and to chase smaller/faster prey)

I wonder how it will look when Confed and Pirate/Retro fleet will cross their paths. Pirates/Retros without destroyer(-s) and heavy bombers doesn't have much chance to survive open battle. They need some "sabotage action" (like mission from fixer).

Kilrathi could have only one fleet that can be match to Confed's... but then again they don't have other capships than Kamekh. Kilrathi fleet with more than one Kamekh will be over powered.

Well, future factions needs new ("medium") capital ships (after "Wing Commander: Privateer" IP will be removed).
Genuine Lifelike Individual

Lexus

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 541
    • View Profile
    • http://abandonedbutnotforgotten.wordpress.com/
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2010, 08:55:00 PM »
AhHhh! My brain is melting from all this strategy!  :eeeee:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :eeeee:

VincentFirePony

  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1236
    • View Profile
    • http://pgmaille.weebly.com
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2010, 11:47:37 PM »
Yikes... Put a bunch of thought into this haven't you GLI?

Maybe something to keep handy for when we have fleets of our own...
There are only a few good things in life: AS, AS, beer, Minecraft and Hostile Takeover! A<0>V

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2010, 10:15:35 AM »
Quote from: "VincentFirePony"
Yikes... Put a bunch of thought into this haven't you GLI?


... and it's just few ideas for fleets AI behavior only. I'm afraid that the game needs better "flight model AI" (e.g. for priority of flight).

Quote from: "VincentFirePony"
Maybe something to keep handy for when we have fleets of our own...


I don't know what CK want to implement but IMHO there are two solutions:
1) build fleets (more than one!) and "unleash" them to patrol/protect/fight through systems (using "general" fleets AI),
2) build fleet, be "commander" and lead them in battle.
But I think that from some point of the game player could use both methods.

For commanding fleet we need new system of "orders". Those from "wingmen" isn't enough. Example of orders:
- some "old" like for wingman (e.g. attack/(dis-)engage, protect/cover),
- patrol nav-points (select points in one system),
- patrol systems (select systems and eventually nav-point in there),
- "go to / wait here" (with selection of nav-point),
- battle tactics (sub-menu for tactics options).

I propose to add (another) new skill: "Fleet Commander" (available when fleets will be... well, available). It could increase while commanding a fleet and could give:
- new commands for "battle tactics sub-menu" (more experienced player's character means additional "advanced" maneuvers; like in "Centurion: Defender of Rome" game),
- better cooperation of ships in fleet (whatever it means...),
- possibility of "hyperspace" communication (more experienced player's character means longer range for "transsector" communication with our fleet; like in "Dune" game but this time without narcotics/melange).

Well, actually this "skill" could increase when:
- after given order fleet successfully accomplished mission (e.g. patrol); slower,
- when personally commanding during e.g. patrol; a little faster ,
- when personally commanding during battle (especially with other fleet); faster.
Genuine Lifelike Individual

GLI

  • Hidden Asset Alpha Tester
  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2010, 01:34:23 PM »
Quote
I propose to add (another) new skill: "Fleet Commander" (available when fleets will be... well, available). It could increase while commanding a fleet and could give:
- [...]
- better cooperation of ships in fleet (whatever it means...),
- [...]


I have some idea for this. When I played "Battle Bugs" game then I saw "a commander". Such "commanding unit" was able to gave +1 to all stats of friendly units (from BB's manual: Commander - A commander gives attack and defense bonuses to friendly bugs within his command radius). Of course, it worked for units in some specific range.

Maybe "Fleet Commander" skill could work like this? I mean more experienced player's character could give better bonus IF will personally command his/her fleet.
Genuine Lifelike Individual

VincentFirePony

  • Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 1236
    • View Profile
    • http://pgmaille.weebly.com
Re: Fleet tactics
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2010, 02:50:11 AM »
Quote from: "GLI"
Maybe "Fleet Commander" skill could work like this? I mean more experienced player's character could give better bonus IF will personally command his/her fleet.


Another open source game I have and play occasionally  Warzone 2100 has a commander unit that gives bonuses to the units it commands.

I would say you get the commander skill once you get your second ship and when you gain experience in the commander skill you can add more ships to your fleet (otherwise the extra ships might go rogue)
There are only a few good things in life: AS, AS, beer, Minecraft and Hostile Takeover! A<0>V