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Author Topic: Making trading more profitable  (Read 15124 times)

GLI

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Making trading more profitable
« on: January 10, 2010, 09:58:52 PM »
Inspired by my own post at "Bug Reports" I decided to conduct some calculations.

Right now I have Drayman and enough money to fill it with Gems (or even Plutonium). But as I mentioned before this "economic" is doggerel.

At Exchange are 1118 units of Pets whit some initial price (i.e 85.11). Using A*'s system I can buy at once maximum 100 units but after such procedure price will arise (i.e. to 85.56). So 100 x 85.11 = 8511, right? Not in A*! My money decreased by 8534(!) and I can see that "Price paid" was 85.33... Say what?! Did price increased for every one unit I bought regardless of how many I'll buy?

When I'll be buying last 1118th unit of Pets than its price will be much bigger than initial (i.e. 90.16)... and even bigger than somewhere else where I can sell it with "profit". In this way I spend 97 962.50 for 1118 units of Pets.

Let's assume that I'll buy it like IRL (I see a price and I take 100 units of something): 100 x 85.11 = 8511. Right? But when I'll decide to buy "a little more" than what? Maybe: "Hey, mister! We have great stuff. If you'll buy 1000 we'll gave you some discount. How about 79.98 per unit if you buy 1000 or more?"... Hmm, maybe "discount" should depend on our status/reputation with Merchants' Guild and faction standing with merchants? As a "Diamond" member of Merchants' Guild I demand a discount! ;)

In this way I can buy 1118 units for 95152.98 (or less). In comparison to previous method I gain 2809.52 (or more)!

The same when I'll sell something even with "Sell all" option - the price will be decreased separately for every sold unit (from 90.17 to 85.11).

It looks for me like a bug but maybe it's a "feature" so I decided to post it here. I hope that some day it'll be "fixed". When it'll be made then it'll be good to have new option to buy certain amount of goods at once (e.g. 76; not 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+1+1+1+1+1+1). We should make deal for exact amount of goods for displayed price as opposed to "buy 10 but next 10 will have higher price".

To avoid "cheating" (buy->start->land->sell or just buy->sell) I propose to improve Exchanges. Right now it looks like price is calculated only buy amount of cargo and even Refineries can sell e.g. Gems cheaper than Mines. It's wrong! There should be three lists:
1) what is produced,
2) what is needed (for life/production/entertainment),
3) everything else ("maybe somebody will buy it but we don't care").

Goods from 1st list shouldn't be bought by Exchange for bigger price then they're selling it (regardless of its amount) and vice versa - goods from 2nd list always should be sold for price bigger than they're buying. Or something like... in The X Universe: "We're not buying our products". 8)
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Thraka

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 04:34:12 AM »
Generally, starting out in the game, I've found that trading is worthless. I just don't make enough, nor do I know where to go. Trading in the original Privateer I thought was much better.

1) At the start, you didn't need to travel to other systems, you just sort of traded between the stations locally, and if you did travel, it was maybe only one sector away and back

2) Trade prices fluxuated enough tthat I could a slightly decent amount of money on top of the missions.

GLI

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 10:38:09 AM »
BTW I think that Drayman should have bigger cargo hold. Look at this picture:



On the left side (and up in the background) we can see a Drayman on landing platform (it's much bigger than Galaxy!). With its relative thin armor and relative small and weak engines Drayman should have at least 5000 in cargo hold (maybe 10000 with "expansion").

Right, "expansion". Its cost should depend on ship's cargo hold initial size (right now we're paying for Drayman's "cargo expansion" the same price like for Tarsus). Maybe we should buy several "expansions" to gain maximum capacity (bigger ship = more "expansions" to buy).
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Cthulhu

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 02:33:18 PM »
Quote from: "GLI"
Right, "expansion". Its cost should depend on ship's cargo hold initial size (right now we're paying for Drayman's "cargo expansion" the same price like for Tarsus). Maybe we should buy several "expansions" to gain maximum capacity (bigger ship = more "expansions" to buy).

True, expansion for Drayman could be a bit more expensive. At first I thought it could have something else, like a "Cargo boost" or "Secondary hull" but perhaps that would mess things up, like the pretty ship overview in the manual.

GLI

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 03:58:48 PM »
Quote from: "Cthulhu"
Quote from: "GLI"
Right, "expansion". Its cost should depend on ship's cargo hold initial size (right now we're paying for Drayman's "cargo expansion" the same price like for Tarsus). Maybe we should buy several "expansions" to gain maximum capacity (bigger ship = more "expansions" to buy).

True, expansion for Drayman could be a bit more expensive. At first I thought it could have something else, like a "Cargo boost" or "Secondary hull" but perhaps that would mess things up, like the pretty ship overview in the manual.


Maybe "cargo expansion" is some kind of mount? By default ships have some space prepared to hold cargo (mounts/installations) but remaining space requires additional mounts (it prevents from moving cargo during flight). I think that for bigger ship we need more "expansions" because it have bigger "initial" cargo hold. Or something like this... 8)
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GLI

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 12:03:57 AM »
This is insane! I bought 2005 units of Holographics and when I sold it at pleasure planet (with initial 0 units at Exchange) I lost 6000. Trading without missions is impossible. I think that even "events" could be "not profitable" for such big and slow ship like Drayman.
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Christian Knudsen

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 12:20:20 AM »
Hmmm, maybe I should just change it so that when you for example select "Sell 100" all 100 get sold for the initial listed price? The problem with that is that you can sell a lot more to a base than it actually needs, all at the same "good" price if you just hit "Sell all"...

What if I removed the "Sell all" option, but did the above change, so you'd be able to sell in maximum increments of 100 units at the stated price. So, when you've sold the first 100 units, the price will change based on the new supply and demand, and you can then decide if you want to sell another 100 units at this price or go look for a better deal?

GLI

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 12:35:39 AM »
With over 2000 space in cargo hold even "100" is small. I propose to make "Buy all" for initial price (maybe with "discount" in a future). "Sell all" for initial price should work too but like I wrote prices of goods should depend on place where we'll buy or sell it. "Commodity Exchange" has limit of 5000 units per cargo and e.g. Loye Naval Base always is "hungry" of food supply. For them there is no such thing like "more than we need". It applies to mines and refineries too.
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Thraka

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 01:43:36 AM »
Maybe look at a trading game like Patrician 3 to get a feel for supply demand and unit discounts etc..

For example, if the Mining bases produce metals of some sort this would be a low purchase value since the base produces so much of it. However, one of the popular planet places maybe builds lots of computers, which needs the metals. Computers at this place would be cheap as long as there is a large amount, but since they don't produce metal, if there is a low metal count, then the selling price would be high.

It would be pretty cool for the game to have a manfacturing system. But imagine that is an overhaul for the game. But still, it would be pretty freakin awesome. Eventually you could invest in them and if pirate activity is too high in the sector it hurts the output of those bases.. :)

I imagine those sectors with a single fueling station needs to be resupplied regularly :)

GLI

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 11:04:26 AM »
Quote from: "Thraka"
Maybe look at a trading game like Patrician 3 to get a feel for supply demand and unit discounts etc..

For example, if the Mining bases produce metals of some sort this would be a low purchase value since the base produces so much of it. However, one of the popular planet places maybe builds lots of computers, which needs the metals. Computers at this place would be cheap as long as there is a large amount, but since they don't produce metal, if there is a low metal count, then the selling price would be high.


AFAIK IRL producers/manufacturers can have low and high prices for their products but even higher price is lower than at retailers... and they will not sell their resources. Especially not cheaper than they bought it. And not all of their resources if its amount is excessive.

Right now in A* you can buy at refineries e.g. Gems cheaper than at mines because in Exchange only amount of cargo does matter. After c.a. 50 "game hours" of play (in my case) bases have huge amount of goods. Right now it is set that initial price of 1000 e.g. Gems is lower at refinery than 200 at mine.
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Christian Knudsen

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 11:15:04 AM »
Quote from: "GLI"
Right now in A* you can buy at refineries e.g. Gems cheaper than at mines because in Exchange only amount of cargo does matter. After c.a. 50 "game hours" of play (in my case) bases have huge amount of goods. Right now it is set that initial price of 1000 e.g. Gems is lower at refinery than 200 at mine.

Not true. Each base has a production/consumption rate and a level of demand that also affects prices. This has not been fine tuned for all bases yet, which is why there are sometimes oddities.

Thraka

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 03:01:57 PM »
Does the game simulate other traders picking up thigns and delivering them to other bases?

Christian Knudsen

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 03:13:00 PM »
Only in the very abstract way that each time the commodity market is updated (once every game hour), there's a chance that the amount of a given commodity at a given base will be decreased or increased to simulate other traders buying/selling stuff.

GLI

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 08:08:34 PM »
Quote from: "Christian Knudsen"
Quote from: "GLI"
Right now in A* you can buy at refineries e.g. Gems cheaper than at mines because in Exchange only amount of cargo does matter. After c.a. 50 "game hours" of play (in my case) bases have huge amount of goods. Right now it is set that initial price of 1000 e.g. Gems is lower at refinery than 200 at mine.

Not true. Each base has a production/consumption rate and a level of demand that also affects prices. This has not been fine tuned for all bases yet, which is why there are sometimes oddities.


Could you explain me how it is possible that I bought  1238 Gems at mine (Novy Norilsk) and when I sold it at refinery (Ragozin) its initial price was lower than at mine? I lost 28000 on this transaction.

I hoped that it'll work correct when I bought c.a. 600 units of Advanced Fuels at the refinery and I sold it with profit at the mine (it was before "gems"). Unfortunately it doesn't.

I made some tests (thanks to "save files") and it looks like "profit" depends on "how small I'll buy". When I bought 500 Gems only then I gained 4000 (the same route)... :pinch:
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Christian Knudsen

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Re: Making trading more profitable
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 09:07:53 PM »
Quote from: "Christian Knudsen"
This has not been fine tuned for all bases yet, which is why there are sometimes oddities.


And I guess the mine didn't need all 600 units of Advanced Fuels, which is why you didn't sell it with profit. When the amount a base has goes above its demand, the price will go down.